How to Stay Human in an AI World (Feat. Jeff Burningham) - EP 130

On this episode of Walking With the Savior, John Merrill Kirkman welcomes entrepreneur, author, and former Utah gubernatorial candidate Jeff Burningham to discuss his thought-provoking book, The Last Book Written by a Human: Becoming Wise in the Age of AI. Together they explore how artificial intelligence is rapidly changing our world—and why wisdom, presence, and Christlike love are becoming more valuable than ever.

Jeff explains that while AI is making intelligence increasingly accessible, true human flourishing comes through qualities machines cannot replicate: vulnerability, compassion, relationships, and embodied love. John and Jeff also discuss the attention economy, social media's role in creating division, and Jesus Christ's invitation to seek the kingdom of God within. Their conversation encourages listeners to pursue inner healing, choose unity over polarization, love others including those with whom they may disagree,  and keep their focus on the Savior rather than the distractions of an increasingly digital world.

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https://www.jeffburningham.com/book/

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00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
00:44 Meet Jeff Burningham
01:45 Last Book by a Human
03:17 Intelligence Versus Wisdom
05:01 Vulnerability and Success
07:40 Defining Success as Presence
09:41 AI Distraction and Division
13:12 Kingdom Within You
15:12 Embodying Love Daily
18:30 Youre Awesome Challenge
21:13 Divine Unity Explained
22:51 Book Theme Human vs Machine
24:30 Pain as Wake Up Call
25:32 Judgment Day for Humanity
27:04 Stop Dividing Each Other
29:29 Politics Without Contempt
31:07 Loving LGBTQ Family
33:43 Christ Over Checklists
36:14 Healing Trauma in the Body
38:19 Heart Game Not IQ
39:35 Jesus as the Way
41:28 Final Blessing and Wrap
43:06 Rapid Fire Promo Questions
43:20 Presence Love and Legacy

#JesusChrist #ArtificialIntelligence #AI #Faith #Christianity #WalkingWithTheSavior #HumanFlourishing #Wisdom #Technology #JeffBurningham #GodsLove #SpiritualGrowth #ChristianLeadership #InnerHealing #Presence #RelationshipWithJesus #FaithAndTechnology #BiblicalWisdom #KingdomOfGod #WalkWithJesus

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

These simple ideas that are often the most powerful and therefore the most neglected. And as AI continues to barrage us, as our social media algorithms continue with the endless scroll, we get to decide if we're gonna be human beings or human doings.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Human. Did I just say human? I meant being human. And most of all, I want everybody out there to know that you are awesome, that you are valuable, you are seen, that you are loved. And in these days where we seem to live to that we're giving our life and our souls to technology, let us connect with people and experience that human connection that helps everybody feel seen and valuable. And I want you to know you're seen and valuable to me, and that you are awesome, my friends. Now, Jeff Burningham is an incredible author and influential, and his book is so powerful. And I can't wait for you to read it and to learn from Jeff. Jeff, just give us a quick overview of your book and then we'll jump into some questions that I have.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah, the book is called. First of all, John, you should are you a Baptist preacher?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Hey, I got a little preaching soul in me.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

I feel it. I hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Where did you grow up? I grew up in Los Angeles. And uh every time I bear my testimony or speak in church or speak at a like a seminary graduation, I get a little, y'all got a little preaching voice, don't you, Brother Kirkman?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

And I I don't know where it comes from, but life is good and I love having energy.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

It's in your soul, man. It's in your heritage, your DNA. Did you serve a mission? Where did you serve? San Antonio, Texas. Okay, well, there's a little bit of it. I served in Charlotte, North Carolina. So bringing me back to my roots here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Let's talk about let's talk about Jesus. Let's talk about being human in the age of AI. Uh, the book that I wrote is called The Last Book Written by a Human, Becoming Wise in the Age of AI. And it has been a very transformative process for me. My background's in entrepreneurship. I ran for governor here in the state of Utah in 2020, lost during the pandemic. And in the summer of 2020, I had space and time. And one of the things that I like to tell, I've been an adjunct professor to thousands of students of entrepreneurship at BYU. One of the things I tell my students is that with space and time, anything can be created. And if you told me I was going to create this book, the last book written by a human in the summer of 2020, I would have said, no way. But uh this is what came through me. And the thesis, we can get into it as much as you want, is that as our machines become more and more intelligent, which John, as you know, is happening as we're sitting here, every moment in 2026, this is what's happening. We must become more wise. We as humans must become more wise. So the question is, is that happening? As our machines become more intelligent, are we really becoming more wise? I don't know. That's the question, and that's the kind of prompt or the plea of the book that I wrote.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And why do you use the word wise?

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Just because I think there's a difference between intelligence and wisdom. What comes after intelligence, John? I mean, intelligence is being commoditized. Uh, like I said, running for governor was very interesting, losing into the summer of 2020 during the pandemic. Um I dove back into the venture work that I was used to. So technology, AI, et cetera, et cetera. And the thing that kept coming and sticking out to me was AI, the technology that stood far and away. And it wasn't because of its ability to create wealth or amass power, which it definitely can be used for. It was because of the existential questions that I think it will cause more humans than ever to ask: Who am I really? What is this reality that we're living in? And how is my intelligence different than this intelligence that I'm interacting with on my phone or in my favorite chatbot or LLM? And those are interesting questions for us to grapple with. And as intelligence becomes commoditized, you could say, via AI, which there's a lot of good to that. There's some downside to that. What we're left with is wisdom and what it means to be human, our humanity, the beautiful mess of being alive and being human. That's what I think will matter more and more in the decade to come.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Okay, so what does it mean to you to be really human?

SPEAKER_03 5:52

I think it means to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

And it means to be real, it means to be present, which is something we really struggle with. We've struggled with since I'm 49 years old, so since I was born. We've become human doings, or at least I don't know, not human beings. We're not human doings, right? Like, at least for me, I don't know how much you know about my story, but I talk about in the book about climbing my little mountain of success. I built billion-dollar companies, I've invested in others, I was a bishop, I have four young kids, I, you know, checked all the boxes, won stupid awards that didn't really mean anything. When I got to the top of the mountain, what I say in my book is that there was nothing but a cold howling wind. Just void.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Jeff, you're just shattering people's dreams right here on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Well, I mean, everyone's gonna take their own trip up the mountain and everyone learns in their own way, but sometimes it, you know, sometimes it's helpful to look to people that have been there and done that and to get advice. And I'm just telling you that there was a cold helling wind, void, and more void on top of that. So while we've been taught that the answers that we're looking for, the validation that we're looking for, the quote unquote things that we're looking for outside of us, as you well know, John, I think, and I'm just here to say amen, hallelujah, and bear my testimony of whatever. Um, what we're really looking for is inside of us. Inside each of us. It's nothing outside of us. It doesn't matter if that's how we've been trained, that's what we've observed, that's what we've even absorbed from our culture, the culture in the church, the culture in the United States of America, you know, that whatever, etc., etc. What we're really looking for is inside of us. And I think that AI will act as a cosmic mirror, it's a reflection of humanity. And I hope that it turns more of us inside to look for the answers that really matter.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Wow. This is so deep, brother. Like so, how do you define success then if it's not the top of the mountain and it's found inside of us? Is kind of what you're saying here. How what's your definition of success? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

I can give you a very simple one-line answer for my definition of success. Now, as I was climbing my mountain, as I was busy serving externally, very you know, as I was running for governor, as I was sitting on boards, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this is all different. But my definition of success right now is very simple. It's to live in the present moment in full non-resistance to what is. Period. That is my definition of success. And what one of the other things that I've told these thousands of uh BYU students that have come through my class, these are entrepreneurial students, but we talk a lot about life and philosophy, kind of like this. This is what I seem to be, this is what I seem to be trending towards in my older years. Um this kind of philosopher hippie uh artist, awkward guy, uh, even though I don't have the hair, but that's what I'm trending towards.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You need to get some tie-dyed shirts, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

I do, I do. But what I another thing I tell them is that the most simple ideas are often the most, or sorry, the most simple ideas are often the most powerful and therefore the most neglected. And this is one of those. If we could just be learn to be present in every moment and live in live with ease, love, and grace, non-resistance to what is, there's the key to life right there. We talk, it's easy to talk about, it's really hard to do, especially in 2026 in the age of AI.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

So, how is AI impacting our ability to be present? This might be a dumb question, but I just want to hear what you have to say because my brain is going, okay, how is this just not quite sure? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Well, I think it's really hard. Our nervous systems were not built to be barraged by messages, by technology. We weren't built for the endless scroll. We weren't built for the almighty algorithm of social media, which I talk about in the book as kind of infant AI or baby AI. It's our first general use experiment, general use meaning most people use it, social media. It was kind of using the algorithm, and look what we got. As we both know, Utah is a fairly homogeneous state. I traveled to every single county when I ran for governor. I had hundreds of meetings, and I was shocked to see that people that shared 91% plus in common, they were focused on the 9% of differences that they had. They had been trained, let's say, by their social media algorithm, to see the differences. But one of the things one of the things that I have definitely learned in my 49 years of experience traveling to 70 countries and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We are anytime that we are sitting across from another human being, we always share more in common than we have differences. You and I are different, John. We see the world differently. We grew up in different places. Um, you again, you have hair, I don't, whatever. There's a lot of differences. You're you're a you know, you're a seminary teacher, I'm I'm an entrepreneur. But those differences don't need to be our collective undoing. In fact, they're meant to bring diversity and beauty to this embodied existence. Yet we're letting it be our downfall. So um, I think that one of the most important things we can always do is to remember that we always share more in common the different. Again, that's wisdom. Even if our even if social media isn't telling us the case. So I think your question was about oh, how, so we're not, we're distracted, we're not present. We are being fed things that will keep our attention. We're in an attention economy. The most valuable thing you can give someone is not money, it's your time and attention. And these AI companies, these social media companies know that, and they're just trying to keep you on as on the hook as long as you can. And unfortunately, division, hate, greed, which I talk about in the book, is this old game that we've been playing too long. Those things pull us in and they keep us attached too much, too long. It's time to transcend that. And I think AI, the obstacle becomes the way here with AI, and it's going to turn us into ourselves and I think allow us to flourish in the end. That's my goal. That's what I'm working towards, and that's the point of the book.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Okay, so being present. I love the idea of being present with the savior. Now let's turn in, let's turn this discussion towards the savior. Let's bring him in the mix because I think one of the things that's changed in recent years in my personal worship with Jesus Christ is the idea of trying to be present with him. So uh sitting during a worship service and imagine him sitting next to me, um, you know, writing a letter to him and imagine him receiving it, things like that. Um how do you think we could use AI and Jesus and presence and mix it all together and find community with the Savior or communion with the Savior.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Well, maybe we should again, I feel I don't know why. I feel like I've been preaching here for the first 15 minutes. I think you got me fired up with your with your preacher mentality. Let's just let the savior do the work and let's just use his words. The kingdom of God is within you. So, how do we bring presence, AI, and the savior together? The kingdom of God is within you, it's not outside of you. It's inside of you. So we could allow people to sit with that, to think about that, to to ponder, to pray, to meditate on that. How is the kingdom of God inside of me? What was Jesus saying? What did he mean when he said that? There's a good activity.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Wow, my brain is exploding. I'm just like, okay, I I'm I'm really struggling with that. Um the kingdom of God is inside of you. My thought comes to love at the heart, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

What um well, I I think that love is the answer. I think in 99.3% of our human interactions or experiences, the answer is love. But how do we exhibit that when someone cuts us off in traffic? When when someone misjudges us, because I don't look exactly like you do, because I don't maybe believe exactly the way you do. Do I still exhibit love? So in order to do that, in order to, in order for love to be the answer we exhibit 99.3% of the time, and I'm just leaving out like cases of abuse or you know, I mean, sometimes you just gotta draw the line, but otherwise, love is the right answer. But how do we exhibit that in our everyday life? That is the only way to do that is to embody love, it's actually not to talk about love, it's not to preach about love, although we do those things. How does it become embodied? So when Jesus says the kingdom of God is within us, I think one of the things he is saying is that only love that comes from inside, that comes from you could say, God or the savior, from yourself, your highest self, only through that can you embody love and then exude it into the world. And that's when things go your way, and it's when things don't go your way. You are steady and present in the savior's love, in your love, and in sharing that with our fellow travelers on the earth.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Embody love and let it exude through you.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

The book is kind of an East meets West book about it's about humanity. They're probably 23% of the books about AI. 77% of it is a re is a spiritual journey about, let's say, East versus Western thoughts on what love is, what religion is, who Jesus is. Um you know, all these big existential questions that really are at the heart of what matters. Um, and and again, I think AI, I didn't explain this very well, but AI is a cosmic mirror. Think of it, John. It just takes all of human data, then how you interact with it, and it provides a reflection. And a reflection can be a powerful thing because if we see ourselves more clearly, we're able to change where we need to change. Um, so that's the journey we're on together, in my opinion. Hallelujah, amen, brother. John Merrill Kirkman. Let's go. Are you up for it? You're awesome. Can you do it? Can we do it together? Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Well, this is what I've learned recently in my life. Okay, I took on this You're Awesome challenge three, four years ago. I was I was sorrowed by the loss of people to suicide. And I was like, I just want to hug all the hurting people out there and tell them that you're awesome. And that and I know they don't feel like it, right? But if we could peel back the layers and really see as we are seeing, that there's awesomeness in each person. And here's what I found the more I try to share that you're awesome message, and what I do with that is my goal is to tell ten people a day they're awesome. And the the crazy thing is that the more I've done that, the more something's growing inside of me. There's there's something happening to me. I was out to help other people, to save other people, but then I'm finding that the growth is happening inside of me. And I'm and and it's next level, like happiness, joy, peace, purpose, thrilling.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Um God is inside you, John. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

I'm like, wow, I never thought of this.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Sounds like sounds like your outer world is a reflection of your inner state of being. And I'm not just saying that for you, I'm saying that for all of us. Oftentimes, our outer world is a reflection of our inner state. So when we tell people they're awesome and we mean it, and by the way, I feel that pouring out of you. I feel that even though we're on Zoom, thank you. I can feel this uh love preacher, you're awesome vibe in you in you, and it's kind of fired me up a little bit, honestly. It just kind of is fun, yeah. And so, but but people feel that, and then I think our outer world often changes based on our inner state. The kingdom of God is inside of you, and it looks like it's it sounds to me like it's growing. We're all divine. So, like you said, we're all awesome. What's inside of us that's awesome is our divinity, and I would say our unity. See, right now we experience each other. You're John Merrill Kirkman, which I love that you do that middle name. Elder John Merrill Kirkman. Uh, I'm I'm Jeffrey David Burningham. So, Jeffrey David Burningham. Uh, we we experience each other right now as separate individuals, identities. It's true, that's part of embodied existence. But the fundamental root of our connection is divine and it's unitive. We are one. We are, let's say, the body of Christ. I'll put it in a Christian Mormon context. Context. The way that we are the body of Christ is that we all bring our unique individual gifts and parts. And when this when this um illusory division falls away, which it will, our unity as a divine being is what remains. And that is actually much more fundamental to this experience and this existence than any differences we may have, any disagreements we may have. Uh yeah. So it's up to us to remember that, to feel that. And this is what the last book written by a human is about. It's about remembering these simple ideas that are often the most powerful and therefore the most neglected. And as AI continues to barrage us, as our social media algorithms continue with the endless scroll, we get to decide if we're going to be human beings or human doings. And if we're going to use the machine, I'm putting in quotes to uh accelerate human flourishing, or if the machine will crush us. Kind of like the cross. Whether the cross or the machine, I'm using these metaphorically, the story stays the same. The pattern remains and continues to repeat itself.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

So I'm thinking about uh the savior, you know, stepping away to connect with his father. Uh what role do you see that, you know, personal worship, personal connection with the divinity, with the divine, and in the mix of AI and social media and the div the scrolling that you're talking about? Like what what does it take to to pull ourselves away and get there or how how important is that, or something like that?

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Evidently, it takes a hell of a lot of pain. And I, you know, I don't it takes a lot of pain. We're gonna get sick of ourselves. We're gonna get so we're gonna get sick of like the endless scroll, we're gonna get sick of the flatness of what AI creates. It's almost too perfect. And we're gonna realize, oh, I I want to swear, but I won't. It's probably not allowed on this in your podcast. Um we're gonna be gonna say, okay, we're gonna say, oh damn, it was all here all along. Like the beauty was in the mess. We had it, we were human, we were embodied, and we were missing it. We were missing the point. And so, again, I think the obstacle becomes the way, the only way is through, but that going through is painful. I talk about AI in the book as kind of a metaphorical judgment day for humanity, it's a crucible that we get to pass through together and again decide if we're gonna focus on human flourishing or if we want to continue to hate and kill each other and fight.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

So when you said it's gonna take a lot of pain, uh, and you talked about, well, do you see that pain as hitting a wall going, man, I hate my life pain? Or are you talking about the pain that is caused by wars and contention, or are you talking about all of it?

SPEAKER_03 25:52

I'm talking about all of it. I think that um for better or worse, and sadly enough, humans need pain to transform, it seems, because we don't really want to look inside of ourselves. The reason we look out, one of the reasons we look outside of ourselves, John, is because it's easier to look outside of ourselves. The problem's not with me. It's not with how I see the world, it's how you see the world, John. You're a seminary teacher, you're doing this, that, you're, you're doing it, you know, like you're not doing it exactly how I think you should do it. Well, um, that's just a false narrative that we've been telling. And obviously, you and I share so much in common. I mean, you live in Lehigh, I live in Provo, you're white, I'm white, you're male, I'm male. Like I could go on, we we come from the same faith tradition. Like, we share so much in common. Yet, even amidst our own faith tradition, we find things to be petty about and fight about. What and I'm sorry, what in the world are we doing? What are we doing to ourselves? Why are we doing this? Why do we keep repeating the patterns? By the way, the patterns that Jesus was here to illuminate or to show us. He was showing us the way. Jesus is the way. And each of us will have opportunities in our own lives, and again, in the age of AI in 2026, to lay down our lives for our friends. So if you're the CEO of a company and you're crushing human jobs for the bottom line, I'll just say to use that's bad karma. And you better check, you better check yourself. If you're a religious leader and you're using petty differences to judge and divide and characterize people, let me just say, in my opinion, Jesus, you're gonna find Jesus soon enough. And it's not gonna be a pretty morning. Um, you got me riled up here.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Am I saying too much?

SPEAKER_03 28:11

So, and this goes, if you think that your political ideology is the only right and righteous ideology, you've got another thing coming because it's not right versus wrong. It's not black and white, there's a lot of shades of gray in everything that we're doing. And again, at the heart and root of this grand experiment of existence is a divine oneness that we have forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Divine oneness.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yeah. And we need sounds like we got a lot of work to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

We need divine oneness. And it's sad to see these things causing division, but you see this, and I social media is what's fueled it in my mind is the intense differences that people have politically. And no longer is it, hey, we can just sit together and be friends, and you're this pub uh, you know, party, and I'm this party, but now it's like, I don't know if I can be with you in the room because you're that party. And I'm like, what are you talking about? One of the greatest compliments I got from one of my sisters is uh, I don't know what John and Jenny, my wife, I don't know where John and Jenny stand on all this stuff. And it's not that we're ignorant to it, it's just if we're in a family gathering, I'm like, I play the middle, man.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I'm not gonna stand over here and tell you you're stupid. Because I can't sound like you're a Buddhist.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

You you go down the middle way, the middle path.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

I care more about it.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

You're a Mormon Buddhist, John. Welcome to the party. It's a good place to be. You we should hang out more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I care more about the relationship than the party.

unknown 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

And the politics. Because to be honest with you, I I have so little to I can I have so little impact, you know. I'm not gonna change much. So my I I just sibling A, I love you. I want to hang out with you. You're my friend, you're my family. Sibling B, I love you. I want to hang out with you. I don't want to watch you too argue.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Yeah. But can I ask a can I get can we get personal here? You can cut this if you want.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Go ahead, man.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

What if what if sibling A is gay? Does that affect your love or wanting to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

That's funny because guess what? Sibling A is gay.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

So does it affect it?

unknown 31:05

No.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

It doesn't, does it? Heck no, man!

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Heck no.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

My sisters listen to this. I have a gay sister and a gay brother. I love them deeply. Amen. And I just want them to know they are so valuable. They're so valuable to me, they're so valuable to my family, they're so valuable to society, they're so valuable to the kingdom of God, they're so valuable to Jesus, they're so valuable to Heavenly Father.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Don't get me started here, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Amen. Well, no, like, but do you think the institution, the faith institution that we come from, creates a culture where most same gender attracted people feel that way? And we can just leave, we don't need to answer that. But there's a question for us to sit with. Yeah, and I would say you're a seminary teacher, so I won't put you on the spot and make you answer that. But that's a question for us to grapple with.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I think, I think it's I don't, I don't know if it's the institution, it might be, but I think all of Christianity has to deal with it. All of society has to deal with this, right? But Christ teaches unity. If you are not one, you are not mine. And that person walks in, and they may smell like a homeless varmint, you know. But I am supposed to see the divinity in that person and treat them as a son of God walking into my presence. You know, it's funny, one time at lunch, somebody was telling us, we were sitting around a bunch of seminary teachers, and they were talking about this famous person's son or daughter, I can't remember, is in their class. And they're like, Oh, that's that's you know, let's let's just make it up. Famous person, uh, oh, that's that's LeBron's son. Wow, you have LeBron's son in your class. That is so cool. You know, you might have to call home and talk to dad about the student, you know?

SPEAKER_03 33:04

LeBronies in your class, baby.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah. And I was like, yeah, um, well, in my class, I got a son of God.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Drop the mic. Okay, so let's go on. So sibling B is gay too. I like that. You love them both equally. Okay, let's go to sibling C. Let's say that sibling C says, John, um, I love the church. I appreciate what it's given to me. I'm just not sure that um we have to check all these boxes in order to go to the temple for families to be together forever. I'm just giving an example.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Do you love them any more or less based on that? Any less, based on that?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

So here's my focus. My focus is first of all, I love you. You know. Second of all, I would hope that you'd make Christ the focus of your life. Not the check boxes. Not the uh, not not some checklist. You know. I I don't know if that answers the question, but if Christ is the focus, and I feel like this is one of the reasons for this podcast, I interview people from all faiths, talk about Jesus Christ. If you're passionate about Jesus Christ, I want you my podcast. It's because I feel like in my faith, uh what did you call it? You call it the faith. In our faith, whatever you want to say. Uh in our faith community, that's what you've said. In our faith community, sometimes we don't talk about Christ enough. We talk about the church or the, you know, the church is true, or the temple's true. Some people say, I love the temple. I feel the spirit in the temple. No, you feel Jesus in the temple, and it's his house, it's not the temple. I love the temple. Don't get me wrong, but you see that little little fragment there. No, it's not the building, it's a pretty building, it has no power to save you. Uh sometimes we say things like, Oh, we were we were sealed in the temple to be an eternal family. No, Jesus promised to save your family eternally, it's connected to him, him, him, him. I want to place a greater emphasis on him because that's where the life comes from, that's where the flower blossoms, otherwise, it wilts and dies. Because the church itself is imperfect. There is no perfect church, that's a lie. Okay, we're broken people in a hospital called church, and we all need the savior. And so the church is going to offend, it's just gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Well, we're all wounded, and we're all wounded. Whether whatever, whatever tradition or non-tradition we grew up with, yeah, whatever family we grew up in, put together, broken, whatever the case may be, we're all wounded. This is part of the human condition, and the human condition comes for all of us, and it causes trauma inside the body, it causes pain that we get to either look at and deal with or not. And by the way, the reason this matters, just to put it, when we don't deal with the pain inside and trauma inside our own bodies, inside our own lives, that expresses itself out into the world, yeah, and then we harm others, yeah. So until we can look at that pain and trauma inside of ourselves, go inside of ourselves and come to peace with that, it's very hard for the love of God to exude out of us because we're full of pain, and these bodies really differentiate us in the age of AI. You could think of AI in one way as a form of intelligence looking for a body. We have bodies.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

That's wild. That's wild.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

We have bodies, we need to use them to process these feelings, to process these emotions, and to come back to ourselves, to come back to our divinity and our wholeness.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Okay, so what I hear you saying is if I could just restate this, and it's gonna take a sec, because my my brain's just churning out this stuff as I speak, is that we get this knowledge. We get this knowledge, right? We get we have this almost unlimited power of knowledge now that AI has given us this incredible tool to have this knowledge. But inside, if there's a brokenness, and that's what you describe by being hurt, then what's gonna come out is the brokenness, and then the the power that we've been given tends to be misused to cause harm because we ourselves are broken.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

I love it. Yeah, that's a great summation. And another something I'll just add is that evidently intelligence isn't the highest virtue, and evidently humans aren't the only game in town, quote unquote, in the intelligence game, because we're creating machines, a machine that is smarter than any single one of us, right? AI is smarter than any single one of us. Wow, and so we're starting to learn that while intelligence is important and needed and valuable, I'm not saying any of that to hum to humans and to all of us, that's not really what it's about. This isn't a a brain, mind, knowledge game, John. This is a heart game, and that's what Jesus was here to tell us.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

This is what Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Yeah. So tell me the heart.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Okay, so we need to we need to wrap this up. What a why what a yes we do. What did it do?

SPEAKER_03 38:57

I feel like I've gone off the rails here. No, no, no, no, I feel like I've gone off the rails here.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

No, it's it's all time-based, Jeff. I'd spend another hour with you if you told me you had another.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

You think people are leaving this podcast right now? I think they're glued in. I think this they are listening intently, John. They're in it, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

They're in it. We need to tie this to the savior. What's your message to the world about Jesus Christ in this mess that we are creating with AI and the future pain that people might have to face to turn things around?

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Well, without trying to be repetitive, and let me just take a moment to ground myself here and Jesus is the way. I wonder if you or if your listeners have ever thought of Jesus, or I'm sure they have, as an archetype of the way. The way of humanity, both collectively, all of us, and individually. So he told us the way. And the way is to lay our life down for our friends. And that means sometimes we're misjudged, sometimes we're mistreated, yet we face all of that with ease, love, and grace. Instead of returning hate for hate or pain for pain, we absorb that pain and we return love. And the last thing I'd say is that the way that we do that, again, I'm just using Jesus' words. There's a lot more like specifics or like um details we could go into, but I'm just trying to use Jesus' words here. But the way that we do that is to remember that the kingdom of God is inside of you. It's not outside of you, it's in it resides inside of you. So those are the words of Jesus that I would leave with you and your podcast listeners. These are the words that I tried to express through the last book written by a human, believe it or not. And um yeah, those are my feelings and thoughts for today. We we've spanned the gamut.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Jeff, you're amazing, brother. Wow, you're a deep thinker. You've thought about this in ways that people haven't thought about, and that's why this book is going to be do phenomenal things. And I thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts. Um, to my listeners out there, um, so what if your sibling is gay? I want you to know they're a child of God, they're loved, they're valuable. What what's to know if your sibling is a Democrat? Oh no, that's worse.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Oh no, yeah. They're loved, they're valuable. Anyway, what's to know if your if your sibling's a Republican? Oh my gosh, no, not a Republican.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Uh they are loved, they are known by Jesus Christ, and they are valuable. And at the core of us, what matters is where our heart is. Can we sit in presence? Can we be present with family, friends, undistracted, undivided attention, connecting with people, connecting with humanity, and connecting with Jesus, taking time to sit posit uh peacefully with him. I love how you before you responded a minute ago, you said, Let me ground myself. That's being present, and that's taking time to process your thoughts. My friends out there, you're awesome. And thanks for joining us this week on walking with the savior. Enjoy your walk with the savior this week, and most of all, remember you're awesome.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Your future is bright when you walk with Christ.